Pollinators In Winter with David James – Episode 009

David James joins me today to talk about pollinators, particularly in winter.  We discuss:

• Supporting Pollinators in Winter
• Protecting habitat for overwintering pollinators
• Mason Bees
• Butterflies
• Xerces Society
• Pollinator-related research
• Attracting pollinators to the vegetable garden
• Attracting pollinators with native plants

David James is an Associate Professor in the Department of Entomology at WSU’s Agriculture Research and Extension Center in Prosser, Washington. He became an entomologist at 8 years old by rearing caterpillars in his English bedroom. A science degree in the UK was followed by a Ph.D. in Monarch winter biology in Sydney, Australia, and a lifetime of applied entomological research (biological control, chemical ecology, pest management, insect and pollinator conservation) in Australia and the Pacific Northwest. In 2011, he co-authored the Life Histories of Cascadia Butterflies, that David Attenborough called “magisterial.” In January 2024, his new book, The Lives of Butterflies, will be published by Princeton.

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[00:00:00] 

Erin Landon: Welcome to the Evergreen Thumb. I’m your host, Erin Landon, a Washington State University Extension Master Gardener since 2015 and a certified permaculture designer and modern homesteader. I’m here to share up-to-date research-based horticulture and environmental stewardship knowledge to help you grow and manage your garden and to share what the WSU Extension Master Gardener program is all about.

WSU Extension Master Gardener volunteers are university-trained community educators who have been cultivating plants, people, and communities since 1973. Are you ready to grow? Let’s dig into today’s episode.

Welcome to the Evergreen Thumb, episode nine. My guest today is David James. And he’s here today to talk to us about pollinators, specifically in winter, as well as creating year-round pollinator habitat. David became an entomologist at eight years old by rearing caterpillars in his English bedroom. A science degree in the UK was followed by a Ph.D. in Monarch Winter Biology in Sydney, Australia, and a lifetime of applied entomological research, including biological control, chemical ecology, pest management, and insect and pollinator conservation in Australia and the Pacific Northwest.

In 2011, he co-authored the life histories of Cascadia Butterflies, which David Attenborough called “Magisterial.” In January 2024, his new book, The Lives of Butterflies, will be published by Princeton. David, thank you for being here today, and welcome to the show. 

[00:01:42] David James: Thank you. 

[00:01:43] Erin Landon: So to get started, um, how about you tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got involved with pollinators?

[00:01:51] David James: Well, it’s quite a long story, really. I mean, I’ve been an entomologist all my life, really. I was one of those guys that was eight years old and fell in love with caterpillars in the garden and, uh, and it just developed from then. So, I knew at that point I wanted to be an entomologist. And so during my career, I’ve You know, been involved with many types of insects and many different, um, ways of looking at them um, but over the last decade or so, pollinators have really been my forte, I guess. 

[00:02:23] Erin Landon: Okay. And I understand that you have a particular interest in, um, butterflies? 

[00:02:29] David James: Yes. It was the butterfly caterpillars that got me involved in the first place. And, uh, so yeah, I, um, butterflies are my favorite group of insects, I guess, and, uh, and I’ve worked on them throughout my career. 

[00:02:42] Erin Landon: All right. Um, so we’re talking primarily about pollinators during the winter and how we can support them and create habitat for them. So to start, can you tell us a little bit about the importance of pollinators in the winter months and their role in the garden ecosystem in the winter?

[00:02:58] David James: Yeah, well, I mean, obviously during our winters in eastern Washington, um, there is no pollination going on, but the pollinators are often still there in, you know, a suburban backyard. And so we, you know, we need to look after them and not do the wrong things. And, uh, one of the first things that. A lot of people do that is wrong is to clean up in the autumn, you know, this time of year to, to, uh, deadhead everything and, uh, mow the lawn very low um, and, you know, make it clean, basically, or tidy, um, and that’s the total opposite of what the pollinators need because they’re often resting or hiding or overwintering in those places that you’re, um, cleaning up and, uh, you know, if you’re taking all the leaves away, um, putting them in a sack or burning them, you’re probably burning them stages or pollinators. I don’t mean necessarily the adults, but the immature stages that use those sorts of habitats and refugia to survive the winter. 

[00:04:02] Erin Landon: So can you share some examples of plants that bloom in the winter that might attract pollinators in western Washington? I know in eastern Washington, it’s not so much.

[00:04:11] David James: Um, and even in Western Washington, there’s not a great deal of flowering. Um, and so, you know, if there is any pollinator activity, it is fairly minimal. I mean, if you go down to California, of course, um, it’s, it’s quite different, but even, even there it’s at a lower level than during the summer months. Uh, most pollinators have an overwintering stage in Western North America.

Um, the, you know, diminishes the further South you go, but in Western Washington. The bulk of pollinators will be dormant in some way, and maybe they’ll come out on the warmer days, particularly after, after the new year, January, February, once the days start lengthening, which is often a cue that they use, you know, the days are getting longer.

And if there’s some warm weather, they will take advantage of that. So they’re ready to pollinate the first spring flowers, which are on the West side, you know, can occur in January. 

[00:05:06] Erin Landon: What are some ways that gardeners can create habitat that will support, uh, pollinators, especially bees and butterflies during the winter to give them a place to spend the winter?

[00:05:15] David James: Yeah, really it’s, it’s just a matter of, um, of leaving what’s there, the summer growth. I mean, you know, seed heads, um, some, uh, twigs and, uh, um, sticks of plants that are just still there. Some bees will use them to overwinter in. You can buy things for overwintering, you know, you can buy little butterfly houses, but there’s no evidence that they actually work because the butterflies will find their own habitats.

I mean, with butterflies that they’re looking for. Trees, um, they’ll sometimes just be sitting on the bark of a tree, and often they’re camouflaged to, to blend in, um, so they don’t need anything special there, you know, under, um, under. Uh, maybe in a tree hole or just on the bark, um, in a shady part of the tree.

Um, and sometimes they’ll, they’ll go into garden sheds too. Uh, this time of year or in the past few weeks. Um, you know, butterflies, the ones that do overwinter as adults anyway, have been looking for a place to overwinter. Um, so they’re very good at finding places. And so there’s not a lot that we can do to help them, except to, you know, Make sure you’re not cutting everything down, you know, basically, I mean, that, that really is the, the major message is, is to leave the cleanup of the garden until spring, uh, once temperatures are above, um, you know, 55, 60, when most insects start moving again and leave their overwintering quarters, then that really is the time, you know, to clean up, if you like, and, uh, and get ready for the spring growth.

[00:06:54] Erin Landon: Okay. I was in my garden a couple weeks ago and found a swallowtail caterpillar, and it decided to build its cocoon on a cinder block in the garden. Um, is there any concern with it being able to survive being exposed on the top of, um, 

[00:07:09] David James: No, no, um, that’s as long as the cinder block is not in a place that someone’s going to tread on it or, you know, or get damaged in some way, but, you know, butterfly swallowtail, butterfly pupae are, um, formed in places that are exposed and, uh, they’re camouflaged so they don’t attract attention, you know, once the caterpillar is molted into the chrysalis stage, um, it’s, it’s a color that often matches the background, and they are able to do that.

And so, you know, the chrysalis that you have may actually resemble the color of the cinderblock. Um, and so, so no, they don’t need any special, um, covering or shelter. Okay. 

[00:07:52] Erin Landon: Um, I know mason bees have been a popular pollinator topic, and there are, like, we have mason bee houses, um, to, for them, but they have a very short season in the spring, right?

[00:08:07] David James: Yeah. Yeah. They, you know, most, um, native bees, uh, go through a number of generations, uh, during the season. Um, so. Um, you know, most people don’t realize that backyards are very good habitats for, for many native bees. Um, um, you know, we don’t know that much about all of the native bees that we have, you know, we’re still learning, um, about the species we have.

Um, there’s far more species out there than entomologists realized maybe, you know, a decade ago. Um, so, um, it’s, and it is important for urban areas too. You know, pay attention to, you know, the conservation of these insects, um, because, um, much research has shown that, uh, even a backyard can provide a very useful, important habitat for, um, pollinators and insects generally, um, you know, in the past, we tended to dismiss, you know, urban backyards as Not being that important, um, but we are realizing that, um, from research being done all over the world, the urban spaces, um, particularly if they’re cared for and, uh, um, and created, um, as habitat for pollinators and insects generally, then they can serve a very useful function.

[00:09:28] Erin Landon: Great. Are there specific gardening practices or techniques other than not making the yard too tidy that will help protect overwintering pollinators? 

[00:09:39] David James: No, not, not really. Um, I mean, um, as long as the places that they are overwintering are not disturbed, um, then they’ll be fine. Um, there’s, you know, they, you know, all insects that you know, are resident in Washington are very well adapted to survive in our winters. So, you know, we don’t need to help them get through the winter in terms of how severe it might be because they’re all extremely well adapted to doing that, the ones that are a resident here. So, so yeah, there’s not a lot you can do to help them during the winter, apart from the things that we said, you know, make sure that you leave places for them.

[00:10:22] Erin Landon: Okay. How can we turn our gardens into a habitat for, for pollinators? What type of, um, plants or shrubs, perennials, annuals, um, you know, can attract them, feed them, things like that? 

[00:10:42] David James: Uh, it’s, it’s all of those things that you just mentioned, really. And, and I guess it would pay to have a plan if you want to attract butterflies in particular, then there are certain plants that you can use that will attract more butterflies.

Um, but if it’s just general pollinators, then you don’t have to go overboard on those particular plants, perhaps,um, so, so, yeah, you need to know what you’re, um, what you’re wanting. Um, if you want to talk about butterflies, there’s this. You know, specific plants like milkweed that everybody is familiar with the monarch butterfly, and the fact that milkweed is essential for them to survive on for their caterpillars to develop upon.

Um, but milkweed flowers are also extremely important for other pollinators too, which is a little known fact, um, that other butterflies and also bees, um, are very, uh, drawn to and, and utilize milkweed flowers to a great extent. Um, and if you, you know, I. You know, I don’t know if you want me to go through a list, but the list is long and really it, you know, native plants are probably, um, if you’re talking about butterflies and pollinators, generally, um, most of our pollinators are native.

So it makes sense that we provide them with native plants. Um, I, I’m not a purist in that. I don’t, you know. say that we shouldn’t have any other types of plants there at all, because that’s, you know, that’s silly. Um, there are certain ornamental plants that are also very attractive to pollinators and do provide a valuable service to the spring to mind, uh, lavender.

um, Buddleia or Butterfly Bush, um, both of those are extremely attractive to, to butterflies and other pollinators. Um, and, uh, they do well in, in home gardens. You have to be careful on the west side that, uh, Buddleia doesn’t, um, uh, become invasive, which it can do if there’s too much moisture, um, but you can get sterile varieties of that plant.

But on the east side, um, it’s, it’s rarely a problem in, in that regard, uh, that particular bush. Um, but But yes, natives, and if you want butterflies to, um, you know, not just dash in and dash out again to feed on the nectar, um, you can start thinking about growing host plants, um, particularly if you have a slightly larger block, um, you can grow, uh, certain of their host plants that will allow them to breed in your backyard.

Um, And so, you know, there’s some examples like a lot of butterflies utilize grasses as their larval host plant, some brown butterflies do this. So if you, if you have got a large yard and you can spare a corner where you can let native grasses grow, you could well provide a habitat for their breeding.

And there’s other examples too of host plants. So I get, as I said at the beginning if you want to develop a butterfly garden, then you need to do a little bit of research and discover which types of plants, um, would be appropriate for that. 

[00:13:57] Erin Landon: I know I’ve seen, um, caterpillars on, I think it was fennel, the swallowtails, like the fennel.

[00:14:06] David James: That’s right. Yes. That’s, that’s a good example of a plant that is quite good at attracting swallowtail butterflies to lay their eggs on and, uh, and produce caterpillars. Um, and, you know, fennel. isn’t necessarily native. It isn’t native, but they will utilize that as well as their native host plants too.

And so there are some butterflies like that as well that will use, um, not just native plants. Um, another good one that I’ll mention that, um, will probably, uh, maybe disturb some people because, um, it’s stinging nettles and, uh, not many people like stinging nettles. Some people on the west side, I know, do cultivate them to use as herbal type of tea so they are useful for that, but a lot of people do not know that they also support the life history of five colorful Pacific Northwest butterflies, including the red admiral, the small tortoiseshell butterfly, painted ladies. Um, and so having a patch of nettles in an out-of-the-way place in your backyard, um, could well, uh, entice butterflies to come in, uh, lay their eggs and, uh, you’d see a lot more of them in the garden than if you didn’t have stinging nettles there.

[00:15:24] Erin Landon: Yeah, I love stinging nettles, but our property is just way too dry. It won’t support it. So, um, so if anybody does want to plant nettles, you need to have kind of a damp location for them to thrive. 

So are there any resources or organizations that can help gardeners learn more about creating pollinator-friendly habitats?

[00:15:48] David James: Yes, the Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation is the prime source of a lot of this material. They’re excellent at producing documentation. There’s a couple of good books. There’s one specific for attracting butterflies to your backyard, I think. There’s also one on, we’ve got it here actually, on native pollinators attracting native pollinators to the backyard or to other areas. So it’s not just backyards, you know, parks and reserves. So, so, yes, the website to the Xerces Society website is also a fountain of information. So that would be my first stop if you’re interested in looking at resources for developing your garden as a habit as a pollinator-friendly habitat. There’s also many resources online If you just google, you know the keywords and there’s a lot of books too. So there’s there’s no shortage The good thing about the Xerces books is that there’s actually sections on different parts of the country Obviously what works for us isn’t necessarily going to work for Connecticut or you know, Texas or something.

So You need to be aware of that when you read some of these other books to, you know, make sure you tailor it for, um, our, uh, landscape and our environment. And they, they provide lists of plants that are suitable for the different, uh, regions too. Okay. 

[00:17:18] Erin Landon: Is there any particular research going on right now, um, related to uh, conservation of pollinators or pollinator habitat? 

[00:17:28] David James: Yes, there’s, there’s a lot of, uh, research being done at the moment. I mean, ever since, um, people became aware that, uh, pollinators were in trouble, um, 10, 15 years ago now, um, there’s been a very big push in the research community to learn more about pollinators because, you know, in the past, we didn’t really focus on pollinators much at all because they were there, they were present, you know, most of the research was done on controlling bad insect pests, you know, um, and so the focus really wasn’t on pollinators, but that, that’s changed substantially now, um, all over the world.

People are looking at the types of pollinators, their biology, and ecology, as I mentioned earlier, we know so little about the species for a start, let alone what they actually do, their life histories. So we’re working on that. And also importantly, um, the conservation. This is why I mentioned the importance of urban landscapes.

There’s a lot of papers being produced recently looking at Or just, or demonstrating the importance of, you know, big cities, um, their parks and gardens within places like Seattle and Los Angeles and other big cities of the world. And just how, um, important those green spaces are in preserving and sustaining pollinator populations.

I mean, pollinators are very adaptable and resilient. And, uh, and so they’re, they’re not, they’re not flaky for want of a better word that they’re pretty, they’re more robust than we give them credit for the same goes for butterflies too, you know, I’ve been around butterflies all my life and everybody thinks that they’re weak and, and, uh, and not robust, but that, that’s not true. Most of them are very resilient and, uh, and that they have to be, you know, they’ve adapted over millennia to, to the environment. So they’re much tougher than we give them credit for, but they can still use a helping hand of course. And, uh, and that’s, you know, what we’re talking about now.

And, uh, there’s no doubt that you know, in this time when, um, Habitat loss, which is one of the major drivers of pollinator decline, is happening at a great scale. Pollinators do need our help. So, um, if we can find that urban landscapes are of benefit, then that’s great because, you know, everybody can do their bit.

[00:19:55] Erin Landon: All right. Another question I just thought of, uh, kind of off the top of your head when it comes to say like a vegetable garden that you want to attract pollinators to have your crops pollinated, better pollination. Um, are there specific, um, companion plants that tend to attract pollinators? bees and other pollinators?

[00:20:17] David James: Yeah, there are. Um, and I can’t think of them off the top of my head, but you know, things like lavender, uh, uh, there, there’s certainly, uh, a lot of companion type plant tins that you can use to, um, attract more. uh, pollination. Um, so yeah, that, that, that’s another thing you can do. And, and you know, the knowledge is getting there now.

You know, I’d say there’s a lot of research being done now, but at the same time, it’s being extended to things like the Xerces Society and their, their books and such like. 

[00:20:49] Erin Landon: Okay. Is there anything else that you’d like to add about pollinators or butterflies in particular that you’d like people to know?

[00:20:57] David James: Um, well, it’s, I guess the, the message really is that um, and I touched upon it just a moment ago, is that you know, with the loss of habitat and, and the use of pesticides, they’re the two prime drivers of insect and pollinator decline. Um, and that is a real thing. You know, insects generally, not just pollinators are declining.

Um, and it’s. One famous entomologist said it’s the small insects that run the, well, the small things that run the world, and that’s literally true. And so, you know, once we start losing insects, then we lose other things too. And there’s studies showing, you know, with reduction of insect populations followed on from that, there’s a reduction in bird populations that feed on the insects. So, so that’s, that’s the great thing about gardens and urban landscapes is that you can do your part for helping the declining insect and pollinator populations on a small scale. Everybody does it, then it improves the situation across the landscape.

So you don’t have to feel like you’re not doing anything. You can actually do something. The other thing about Urban landscapes, I guess that’s become a bit of a, uh, A keynote at the moment is the, you know, the fact that we have so much lawn scapes, you know, just, just lawns, which could be, you know, turned into something a bit more pollinator-friendly, um, and that is a movement that is taking place, um, throughout the world, you know, people realizing that, um, We can, we can change that.

Um, and it’s an easy, relatively easy thing to do. Not saying get rid of every lawn, but, but, you know, the vast expanses of lawn are not necessarily, you know, they’re not, they’re certainly not helping pollinator populations or insect populations generally. And just a bit of diversification, I guess that’s the keyword, word is diversity.

And that goes for, you know, establishing a pollinator garden is to make it as diversified as possible, um, and you’ll have the best rewards. I mean, the more diverse plant structure there is, the more diverse the insect community is going to be. And so, you know, lawns are sort of the antithesis of that. And if we can move away from that, and I think we will over the decades in the future, then that’s got to be a great bonus for pollinators and insects generally.

[00:23:34] David James: Yeah, there’s, there’s certain groups of plants that are very good. Um, asters spring to mind, uh, daisy, Compositae, the daisy family is, um, You know, you can’t go wrong with them. Uh, all the pollinators like them. 

Simple open flowers are generally the best, you know, where the insect can land on the flower and, and feed. There’s uh, oh, I’ve gone blank now. Mint, the mint family is another good one. Valerian is a, is another good plant. There, there’s many. different types, really. Um, and you know, there’s, we shouldn’t ignore native bushes too.

Um, this time of year in the, in eastern Washington, actually throughout the western U. S., uh, the rabbit brush bush, um, which You know, it’s a yellow flowering plant that’s all across the landscape is extremely important for pollinators because it’s one of the few nectar sources that’s available at this time of year.

Um, we’ve done some research here at WSU looking at, um, the importance of rabbit brush and also sagebrush too, which also flowers at this time of year. These are plants that are dominant on the landscape and sort of ignored by people because they’re just everywhere, but we’re discovering that they are very important, uh, both in terms of shelter, you know, sagebrush provides shelter, you know, on our treeless landscape, um, sagebrushes are very important in providing shelter for insects, um, and then rabbitbrush flowering as it does during August and September and into October.

It’s only just. Finishing now. Um, it’s one of the few nectar sources, native nectar sources available for our, uh, native insects. So, you know, if I was established in a pollinator garden, the rabbit brush would definitely be in there. 

[00:25:26] Erin Landon: Okay. That’s when I’m not familiar. I’m familiar with sagebrush, but not the other. So I’ll have to look into that one. I have scotch broom. 

[00:25:34] David James: Okay. Well, it’s, it’s not, it’s not on the west side, so it’s on the East side. All the way down to California, um, any dry desert type area, you’ll see this yellow flowering bush, um, that looks a bit like sagebrush, but it has these beautiful yellow flowers.

And, uh, it actually is, um, I’m discovering in my research on the monarch butterfly, um, One of the, without rabbit brush, they wouldn’t have the fuel to migrate to California. So, and that’s probably the same for other migrating insects, and there are others as well that also head south. Um, so I think, uh, rabbit brush is a, it’s a very, um, underestimated, undervalued resource that, that we have here in inland parts of the Pacific Northwest.

[00:26:19] Erin Landon: So, are, is the monarch migration, is Washington, does Washington tend to be a, a major spot for the monarchs to migrate through? 

[00:26:31] David James: Yeah, in some years, particularly this year, I’m actually monitoring sightings of monarchs and during the first 20 days of October, we had 30 verified reports of monarchs migrating, mostly down rivers and across the countryside, feeding on things like rabbit rush, heading south.

So, so yeah, they, They’re, um, you know, by October, it’s getting a bit late, but luckily up until now, we’ve had pretty good weather, and, uh, they should make the journey all the way down to California, but, but yeah, they come up to Washington every year, some years better than others, uh, spend the summer here, then return at this time of year.

[00:27:15] Erin Landon: All right. Anything else you’d like to add? 

[00:27:18] David James: I could go on and on. I guess one thing I should mention is that, um, in a lot of my work at WSU, we focused on beneficial insects. Um, and by that, I mean, um, pollinators, but, but also predators and parasites of pests, you know, and That work originated in agriculture, um, but it’s also applicable to the home garden, um, you know, because home gardens have insect pests that you don’t particularly want, um, and so by growing the sort of plants that attract pollinators, it turns out you also attract these other types of beneficial insects too, and I’m talking about things like lacewings and lady beetles, um, you know, the beneficial bugs, insects that, that eat aphids and mites and things like that.

The plants that we’re talking about for pollinators will attract them too. We’ve documented this. We’ve published papers on it. Um, things like stinging nettles again, native buckwheats, which are also good for growing in the eastern parts of Washington. They all attract. Other types of beneficial insects, the predators and parasitoids, uh, which control pests.

So, so really getting a two for one, if you like, you’re, you know, you’re attracting, uh, pollinators, but also the other types of beneficial insects as well, which adds. As I said before, to the diversity, the community, um, that, you know, you can, you can create in your backyard and, you know, the upshot from that will be less pest problems.

Um, all this doesn’t happen overnight, of course, is we’re talking about, you know, establishing a garden along the lines we’ve talked about over, um, a few years and probably 5 years before you start seeing these kinds of benefits, but, but they will happen. 

[00:29:04] Erin Landon: Yeah, well, it’s like we’ve had our vegetable garden in place for seven years now, and this is the first swallowtail caterpillar I’ve seen just this year. So, yeah, they do come eventually.

[00:29:17] David James: Well, as they say, you plant it and they will come. 

[00:29:20] Erin Landon: What I have noticed, we actually have a lot of cinnabar moths in this area. My understanding is that they were. introduced to help control the Tansy ragwort. And so they, um, and they apparently find plenty of food. 

[00:29:36] David James: Yeah, they, they’re, they’re attractive uh, and they, they only feed on ragwort. So they’re doing their job as they were intended to do. And, uh, they’re, as I said, they’re very attractive moths and the caterpillars too. So yeah, we don’t get them on the east side, unfortunately, but we don’t get ragwort either. 

[00:29:54] Erin Landon: All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.

I hope everybody gets a lot out of how to, or how to add pollinators to their garden and take care of them and not make things too tidy going into winter. 

[00:30:07] David James: Right. That’s it. That’s the message. 

[00:30:10] Erin Landon: Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Evergreen Thumb, brought to you by the WSU Extension Master Gardener Program volunteers and sponsored by the Master Gardener Foundation of Washington State. We hope that today’s discussion has inspired and equipped you with valuable insights to nurture your garden. The Master Gardener Foundation of Washington State is a nonprofit organization whose primary purpose is to provide unifying support and advocacy For WSU Extension Master Gardener programs throughout Washington State.

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